INT: If your film is speaking to you on that first cut, and you say it's, you know, “I'm this, which I loved,” have you also gone out and said, “Not only am I this, but you need to reshoot this or add this”?

WF: Occasionally, occasionally yes, I'm missing something, the film says, “You're going to leave this scene unresolved?” Or, “Where's the ending of the movie?” You know, the film is talking to me. And telling me what it is and what it isn't. And I'm listening to it. You know, just as a Composer is hearing the music before he writes it. I mean, the guy who composes the music, any music, Bach, Mozart, whoever it may be, he's got to hear it before he can write it. And like Sammy Chan, my friend, the great songwriter, he was always asked, “What comes first, the music or the lyrics?” And he always answered, “The phone call.” Somebody called him up and said, “Would you write a song for Frank Sinatra? Would you write a song for this musical?” You know, before somebody made the phone call, there's no lyrics, and no music.

INT: Speaking of the phone call, the end of a movie, choosing, 'cause I know you look at some of the final shots that clearly you've designed, this is going to be the end, this is going to be the last shot, editorially when you're getting there, what's going on for you? Are you conscious, “I need to leave the audience with something? I already thought vision in terms of my preconception of what I shot, that this will work?”

WF: No, Jeremy, the movie's talking to me in the cutting room. I'm trying to get you to understand that. [INT: I do.] The last shot of THE EXORCIST was not supposed to be the last shot, there was a whole other scene after it, but there's a, there's a shot where the priest who's the friend of the priest who died comes to a point, looks down the flight of stairs where his friend died. And then he turns around and he walks away from the scene and then there was another scene with Lee J. Cobb, where they're, you know, it's very sentimental. And for 30 some years, I ended the movie where the priest turned away from--turned his back on the flight of stairs and the movie went to black, and some very powerful music came up underlining the experience. And then Bill Blatty [William Peter Blatty] persuaded me to restore the old ending. For 30 years we had this argument, he used to say to me, “The old ending and some of these other scenes that you cut had great resonance and gave the film a more spiritual quality,” and I used to say, “Bill, you're a sore winner,” you know. And then back in the year 2000, we remained close friends and he called and said, “Would you please look at that footage,” and I did with him, and I said, “Okay Bill, I'll give you that version, 'cause they can release it.” [INT: Did that affect also the very opening of the movie?] Yeah, I changed the two opening shots. 30 years later. [INT: You had opened up on that sun if I remember correctly?] Yes. But 30 years later, I--[INT: Now, you have the Georgetown [Georgetown, Washington D.C.] house.] Yeah, but you see, I would change every film I made, if I could, and if I got the ideas to do it, and if a studio would pay for it. For example, there was the great example of that is the post-impressionist painter, Pierre Bonnard. And Bonnard's works hung in the Louvre during his lifetime. [INT: Oh, this is when he went in and actually...] He went in with a little pallet and some brushes and one of his paintings is up there and he starts painting over it and the guards immediately grabbed him, and hauled him out of there. And he said, “But I'm Bonnard. I am Monsieur Bonnard. This is my painting, and I'm fixing it, I'm finishing it.” And the guy, the chief guard said, “Monsieur Bonnard, it's in the Louvre, it's finished.” But--[INT: When do you walk away then?] When they won't pay for anymore. I would still be cutting the first film I made, which is all fucked up, you know. And I could probably make it better, but there's nobody around who wants to pay for that. That's Sammy Cahn's thing, the phone call. [INT: Got it, or the phone hang up.] Well, like I had a phone call from these guys, “Let's put THE EXORCIST out again, in about 2,000 screens, you know, 30 years later, but can you find some new footage?” It was the phone call. [INT: Got it.]

INT: I'm interested in music and when you get--that gets into the editing process for you?

WF: When I’m lucky, I hear it before I shoot the movie. I know what I want to use as with TO LIVE AND DIE IN L.A.. I had heard this band Wang Chung, which was two guys in London and they had a hit song, called “Wait,” which was an incredible vibe. And I contacted them, and I did the same thing I did with SORCERER, I had heard the music of Tangerine Dream and I called them and met with them, did the same with Wang Chung, and I said, “Look, I'm going to make this movie, I haven't made it yet, I'll send you the script, but I want you to write the music independently of my shooting the film. And then just send it to me, because I think your music is the vibe that I hear for this picture.” So with Tangerine Dream, there were three German guys, and I sent them the script and told them the story, they didn't see a frame of the film. And one day the music arrived from Germany on big reels of scotch tape. And I listened to it and it was right on and then I just, the Editor and I took it and fit it into the film while we were cutting it. But it wasn't written to the film at all. And then the same with Wang Chung and TO LIVE AND DIE IN L.A.. They wrote a score in England, mailed it to me while I was editing the film, they hadn't seen the film, and the one thing I said to them was, “Don't write a song called ‘To Live And Die In L.A.,’ I don't want a theme song. I don't want…” and so they went out and they wrote all this music, and then they came in to see the film, and how I had used their music, and the lead guy, a guy named Jack Hues, H-U-E-S, he said, “I have an idea for a song, will you at least listen to it?” And I said, “Okay.” So he went out and recorded it and he gives me a song called, “To Live and Die in L.A.,” and I hear it, and it was a great vibe for the movie. So I went out and shot another opening scene for the picture that I didn't have to encompass his theme song, and it was a hit record. [INT: So that really is literally going out and shooting new material.] We shot a whole new scene that I had not shot that I had not intended that wasn't in the script or the film or anything else, 'cause I heard this song, “To Live and Die in LA,” which I thought was great, and which I didn't want. [INT: Is the scene coming into the hotel with all the cars?] Yeah. It's all the secret service arriving and the guy. [INT: And the chase to the guy who blows himself up?] Yeah, that wasn't the opening of the film. The opening of the film was a guy jumping off the Vincent Thomas Bridge originally. And the introduction of the two characters, one jumping off the bridge, the other guy doing a painting on the wall of his house and then setting it on fire. But then I heard this music and into my mind's eye was dictated this whole different opening which would be more of a background about the secret service guys. [INT: Now how did you convince the studio or whoever it was that the--] I said, “Well, I'm going to do this.” It was MGM [Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer], and I said, “We're doing this and it'll take me about a week to setup and then get permission from the hotel and then we're going to do it.” [INT: Had they seen anything?] I don't remember. [INT: I mean, they've seen dailies, but they hadn't seen a cut though.] It wouldn't matter. No. It wouldn't matter, you know. They wouldn't know how to look at a cut, those guys in those days.

INT: Speaking of looking at cuts, how do you feel about? [WF: It was long after Thalberg [Irving G. Thalberg] believe me.] Got it. How do you feel about showing your film to friends, audiences, before you, in fact, have to lock?

WF: You have to show it to certain people from a studio, if it's backed by a studio. I'll seldom if ever show it to friends until I've got it to where I want it. I don't think I, you know, I had to show THE FRENCH CONNECTION to the guy who was running Fox [20th Century Fox] at the time. And it's one of the things that shaped and framed my attitude, which as you can tell is pretty cynical, about studio people. It was an incredible experience, because as I had told you earlier, Dick Zanuck [Richard D. Zanuck] was fired, his father Darryl [Darryl F. Zanuck] was fired, and the guy running Fox, when I made THE FRENCH CONNECTION, was a guy called Elmo Williams, who had been Darryl Zanuck's Editor, and he also had edited the film HIGH NOON, and he had this great reputation as a star Film Editor. And he was now running Fox when we made THE FRENCH CONNECTION, which is basically the studio was in receivership, and a Wall Street company had taken it over and they were about to appoint two people to run it, but in the interim, Elmo Williams is running it, and Phil D'Antoni [Philip D’Antoni], the Producer and I, had to run the film for Elmo Williams, and his Editor, a guy called Sam Beetley [Samuel E. Beetley]. And they worked like Darrell and Elmo had worked, they sat in a screening room and looked at it, and Elmo would dictate notes to an assistant. Well, Beetley fell asleep at the screening, and Elmo dictated constantly, throughout the whole film he's leaning over, talking to this... And before that Phil and I met Elmo Williams, and he would--talking about his legendary career as an Editor, and he told us that when he edited HIGH NOON, he said, Fred Zinnemann didn't know what he was doing. Fred Zinnemann had shot three-and-a-half hours, he had fallen in love with Grace Kelly and made the whole picture about her. And that Beetley went out--or that Williams went out and cut it, and went out and got the song--[INT: The clock? Oh, right.]--and made all the shots of the empty railroad tracks, and the train coming, he said which Zinnemann didn't have. And the clock going up to high noon, and perhaps he did. I don't know. But we were very impressed and we thought, well this guy can really help us with the edit, 'cause shit, he did one of the greatest films ever made, HIGH NOON.

WF: So now we show him [Elmo Williams] THE FRENCH CONNECTION, and the reaction was not good. And at the end of the screening, in a room such as this, he says to us, “Well, that shot where the guy comes into the nightclub, take four frames off that front of that. And then the chase scene, the shot where the two cars collide, take off two frames of that.” And he gave me about 75 or 80 notes and that had to do with frame cutting. Now, he didn't know what was on those frames that he wanted added or cut. The next frame was often a mic falling into the shot, or a passerby going like that. He had no idea. But he said, “Add four frames,” after one screening of the film. And then he was taking off for Vienna [Vienna, Austria], to Salzburg [Salzburg, Austria], to see the shooting of the film that they felt was going to be the film that saved Fox. Excuse me. A film they made called THE SALZBURG CONNECTION. And that was being shot and he went away for a week to see that. And D'Antoni [Philip D’Antoni] said, “Well, that's not bad.” He said, “Jesus, he didn't ask for so much.” I said, “Phil, that's not bad?” I said, “If I do what he said, I will ruin this movie. Ruin the pace. Fuck, for what?” And I said, “He doesn't know what's in these frames. Add four frames, like, it's out of focus. Or, inappropriate.” Phil says, “Well…” I said, “Look, you can sell ice to Eskimos, we're going to bullshit this guy. You know why? 'Cause he's full of shit. He cut HIGH NOON, my ass, he is absolutely full of shit. And he's so full of shit that when he comes back here, next week to see these changes, I want you to go to him and hug him and tell him, 'Thank you. You saved the movie for us.'” And Phil said, “What are you going to do?” I said, “Nothing. I'm not going to make one change in the picture.” I swear to God this is true. And that's what we did. I ultimately convinced Phil who was a great bullshit artist and Elmo came, comes back into the room from his trip to Vienna. We show them the same picture, and Beetley's [Samuel E. Beetley] there, Beetley stayed awake this time, it's the same movie, not one frame has been added or cut. No notes or one note, Elmo told his assistant. And the lights come up, he says, “Well, you certainly made a lot of improvements fellas, you certainly, it's a lot better. Lot better.” We said, “Well, thanks to you Elmo.” And then he said, “But there's a lot of things I don't understand and so I want to get a narration into the picture that explains certain things.” And I said, “Well, I wouldn't know how to do that," I said, "who's going to write the narration?” He said, “Well, what about the original Writer?” I said, “Well, he didn't have that much to do with the film, but…" He said, “Well, you can write it.” And I said, “Well, who's supposed to be the narrator? Some disembodied voice?” He said, “Get Hackman [Gene Hackman] to narrate it.” Now Hackman was off doing another movie called PRIME CUT. And so I could say that, and then I said, “Phil we're not putting any narration in this picture.” And--"What are we going to do?” “Stall him off.”

WF: We stalled him [Elmo Williams], and now come two guys appointed by Salomon Brothers to run Fox [20th Century Fox]. One was a guy called Dennis Stanfill [Denis Carothers Stanfill], was a Wall Street guy, and he appointed a man named Gordon Stulberg, who I had worked with doing BOYS IN THE BAND [THE BOYS IN THE BAND] for CBS Films. And now Gordon and Stanfill are running the studio and they, the week THE FRENCH CONNECTION has to open, and I've said to Elmo, “We can't get Hackman [Gene Hackman], and you know, I don't know who else to get.” And they had to put the, it was the only film they had. The only film they had to release. They had one other, called THE HOT ROCK, with Robert Redford and Zero Mostel. They opened right across street from each other, and in Westwood [Westwood, Los Angeles], among other places. And for some reason there was a drumbeat and people went to see THE FRENCH CONNECTION and no one went to see THE HOT ROCK, although it had Robert Redford at his peak. And the studio was taking ads saying, we think THE HOT ROCK is a great movie, see it for nothing. Go see the film for nothing and then just tell your friends if you like it. No one went to see it for nothing. And the movie gods smiled on THE FRENCH CONNECTION. And the pictures released and it's an instant hit and I can't tell you why to this day. But now I get a call from Ted Soderberg [Theodore Soderberg], the Mixer at Fox [20th Century Fox]. And Ted said, “You're not going to believe this, but we got a call from Elmo Williams, he wants to bring the picture back in and remix it.” I said, “What?” I called Elmo, I said, “Elmo, you want to go back, the film's out.” He said, “I know, but the mix, it's all over the place, some of it's too noisy, and some of it's too quiet. So I'm going to pull it back in--” I said, “It's in theaters.” “We'll get rid of those prints and put out new prints.” So I go to see Gordon, and I told Gordon Stulberg the whole story of our experience with Elmo and the cut. And he says, “Geez, is the guy crazy or what?” I said, “He's full of shit, I'll tell you that right now.” And so Elmo said--Stulberg said, “Let me handle this.” He calls Elmo up to his office, and he's the boss now, Gordon. And Elmo's working for him. And he says, “Elmo, you want to remix THE FRENCH CONNECTION?” “Yeah well, there's a lot wrong with it, and this and that and…” And Gordon said, “Well, it must be something right with it, 'cause look at these grosses.” And Elmo says, “Well, that's not how Darryl [Darryl F. Zanuck] would look at it. That isn't what Darryl would do. Darryl would get it right.” And Gordon said, “Look, I'm not Darryl. I'll never be Darryl. And I'm a business guy. He said, go back and give me an estimate on how much it's going to cost to remix that movie and put out new prints and junk the old prints.” And Elmo said, “Well, I'm telling you that Darryl would never ask how--” and he said, “I'm not Darryl.” So Elmo comes back in a day and he's got a number. I don't even remember what it was, it might've been 75,000 dollars, there weren't that many prints out. And Gordon says to him, “You know what Elmo, he said I'm going to take that 75,000 dollars and I'm going to buy more ads for the picture. I'm not going to remix it.” And he saved it. Gordon saved the movie, 'cause Elmo Williams would've destroyed the picture. I don't dislike Elmo Williams, I have nothing against him, he had a great career as an Editor, and I’ve talked to him since. At one point, he was working with the Shah of Iran to try and bring movies to Iran to be shot. And they did bring a few, they made some things over there and he asked me to do one and but what I'm telling you is the emess [Yiddish for “truth”], it's the God's truth of what almost happened to that movie.

INT: It's interesting how important though your recognizing sound is to the film.

WF: Sound, but also frames. [INT: Oh no, that for sure. I mean.] One frame makes a difference in a cut. [INT: But so does, I mean--] Tempo, I mean, add some notes to “The Rite of Spring,” or take some out. You know, these things are visions and I'm not comparing THE FRENCH CONNECTION to a masterpiece, not at all of any kind, but it is what it is. It's what I saw and what I constructed with the help of the film, and with the help of the Editor, and the Producer, you know. And we made the film that spoke to us and told us what it was and in comes a guy saying, "Add four frames..." You know, it's like if I said to you, “Jeremy, I want you to take out this part of what I said, there's a--" I don't know what to take out. You know, I've spoken to you freely and trying not to edit or not to spare people's feelings including my own, but the rest is up to you. I recognize that, “render unto Caesar” and this guy was not “rendering unto Caesar.” He could've said to me, “This scene looks too long to me,” or he could've said, “I think you need another scene to clarify this,” but when he says put narration in, he's lost me. That film didn't want no narration. It would've thrown up the narration. And but it was the difference between how he saw a film and how I saw it.

INT: In your evolution as a filmmaker, I assume there have been times when you had quote "final cut." I assume that this particular picture, FRENCH CONNECTION [THE FRENCH CONNECTION], 'cause it was early on in your career. [WF: I've never had final cut contractually, but I've never really had a film taken away.] Have the Guild--[WF: Guys have tried to take films away, but for one reason or another, they didn't. I threatened to sue Universal [Universal Pictures], you know, over SORCERER and did sue and prevailed.] Has the Guild [DGA] been of use in any of this in terms of you know, your experience. [WF: Sometimes, yeah. Oh sure.] When were you aware, by the way, of the Guild?

WF: When I, well, when I came out here and went to work for Wolper [David Wolper], doing documentaries, in the middle 1960s, I had to join the Directors Guild [DGA]. And in those days, if you had a job, with a signatory, you're in the Guild. You had to be in the Guild to work, and I don't know if it's still that way, I mean, or if they'll accept everybody but no, I've got a job. [INT: No, you still have to, you know, have a job and it has to be a signatory, your name is brought out before the Western Council, the Western Council, you know, approves or disapproves your--] Well in those days I don't even know if it went to a council. But I'm working for Wolper, he's hired me, I had to pay, I think the dues at that time were 600 dollars. And I had to pay it off 'cause I didn't have all that kind of money. [INT: Me too.] And then gradually, you know, I realized how strong and important the Guild was, I didn't when I came out here. And then by the time I had done THE FRENCH CONNECTION, I was living in New York and I was voted to be president of the New York chapter as I said, and I had Elia Kazan and Joe Mankiewicz [Joseph Mankiewicz] on the board. [INT: Had you served on anything in the Guild before?] Well, I was on the board, the New York board, then when I became vice president or president of the New York chapter, I was first vice president of the DGA. And Bob Aldrich [Robert Aldrich] was the president then, and, you know, a real interesting tough guy that I learned a lot from and he was the president of the Guild and he ran those meetings with an iron fist. And did a lot of good for the members today and I wonder and hope that they appreciate it. [INT: Well, there's a Bob Aldrich Award [Robert B. Aldrich Award] if that could be used as an appreciation of it.] What is, who's that given to? [INT: Usually someone who's done enormous service for the Guild and it's has to be done by the entire board has to vote, you know, actually unanimously.] Okay, yeah, I served on the board and as first vice president for four or five years. [INT: Aldrich was the first Director, the first, when I joined the Guild, he was president so you were vice president at that time. Did, had the Guild ever--] Gil Cates [Gilbert Cates] was on my board, in New York. Then he went on, didn't he, wasn't he head of the national, yeah, for many years. Yeah. [INT: Now, he’s the secretary of treasurer. Has the Guild been able to be helpful to you in terms of when you ever had to deal with any of the--like for example the SORCERER, was the Guild helpful?] I didn't require the Guild to get too much involved in these things, but I knew they were always there for me. Absolutely. And the Guild is a boon for Directors, I mean without it, Directors would still be treated like chattel. You know. The guilds are very important in the motion picture industry. It's just their existence means that the guys who come and go as head of the studios have to pay attention and can't just arbitrarily make their own rules.

INT: Did you--Assistant Directors, 'cause they're Guild [DGA] members as well, have their been men or women that you've stayed with over, through your pictures?

WF: Oh sure, I think I only worked with two or three Assistants throughout my career. With the exception of when I went to England and had to use a British--but I worked with Terry Donnelly [Terence A. Donnelly] on four, five pictures. And with Newt Arnold on four or five pictures. Newt passed away, Terry sort of moved to Arizona. I don't, you know, I've only worked with maybe three or four ADs [Assistant Directors] over a 40 year period. [INT: And how would you define?] 'Cause they die or move. [INT: How would you define their role in terms of your relationship with them?] Very important. Extremely important in terms of organizing everything, getting it ready, letting everyone understand what's required of them, and what I was going to do, so all the time that I'm saying to you, “I did this and I did that, and I showed them the pictures of what I wanted or whatever,” it's the AD who've I really communicated to, who's made sure it happened. You happen the way I wanted it, and the ADs always do background for me, I'll tell them what I want and I'll very often direct the background, but the ADs are the first guys in over the wall to organize it.

INT: In working with background, 'cause you've had lots of scenes where you have lots of people, I'm thinking THE EXORCIST, the protest scene, you know with--[WF: Well, RULES OF ENGAGEMENT especially.] Well, exactly. [WF: Newt Arnold.] That was Newt? 'Cause and hearing that you're working with a lot of people as you said, who are not extras, these are--

WF: Who don't even speak the language. And he'd have to have Assistants who spoke both English and Farsi or whatever it was, Arabic. [INT: In terms of scheduling, is that?] The AD does all the scheduling, the AD would tell me what the schedule is. Sometimes, I'll say, "That's not enough time," or "I don't need three days for that. I need two days or one," but always it starts with the AD making the schedule. [INT: Then he will show you.] Yeah and I'll then analyze what he has done and agree about 90 percent of the time. [INT: And because you've worked together like Donnelly [Terence A. Donnelly], for example, looking at that, the whole sequence of the shootout on top of the roofs of that fabulous location in RULES OF ENGAGEMENT…] That was Newt Arnold. [INT: And that, and Newt Arnold, then in terms of sort of you're being able to judge how much time it's going to take because, is it because you, the both of you know or is it because, 'cause I mean these are complicated sequences with lots of shots, and I’m curious where your mind goes in terms of knowing the time that you need particularly with, you know--] I only know roughly. So you'll give more time to it knowing the added hurdle of the language difference. And the fact that you're not dealing with trained extras, with people who you're trying to get to be themselves, but with a difference that you're turning them into an angry mob. So you'll give that a little more time and if you get it done in less, you'll have a drink that night.

INT: Do you relax when you're finished shooting? What happens when you finish? [WF: I don't drink, but I--] When you're done with the day's shooting, what, I mean, are you exhausted?

WF: I go to sleep. I go to bed, that's it, I sometimes don't even have dinner. I'm so rung out and this is even when I was younger. I just look at my notes for the next day and go to sleep, happily, peacefully. If it's been a good day.]

INT: Let me ask you a best and the worst. What for you today is the worst part of being a Director, and what for you today is the best? And that’s today.

WF: Well, it's so much market-driven today. When I started it was, Hollywood was driven by people who loved films. Heads of studios and heads of production who loved the process, loved movies, would take a chance and make pictures about serious social issues and put them out before the entire American audience and the foreign audience. And today most of the films being made are market-driven, tent poles, sequels, most of the stuff that works and so that's what the studios want. SPIDERMAN 4 [SPIDERMAN 3], HARRY POTTER 6 [HARRY POTTER AND THE HALF-BLOOD PRINCE] or whatever it is. And you can't blame them, because it's called “show business” not “show art.” But there was a different vibe when I started that I was much more in tuned with. The people who did a film, green-lit a film, 'cause they believed in it, didn't have a poll or didn't have, it wasn't a sequel or... And so that's one difference today that has changed the audience completely. And I believe that these films have changed the audience rather than vice versa. I don't think the audience said, “Jesus, we can't live without three Spiderman movies.” But that's what they're getting and they're very well done, and but they're on a certain level and that's it. But when I came up the studios were on, the films were on many levels. There were just pure entertainment, but then there was also, you know, wonderful films like ON THE WATERFRONT and Z. I could go on and on about the films that made you understand the world around you better, and reinvented the cinema every time out, and now it's just repeating the same old shit, basically. And it's difficult to get something unique out there before a large audience. That's mostly done now on programs like THE SOPRANOS on HBO.

INT: And for you, the best of it, for today, as far as being a Director?

WF: Well, you can do anything. Anything you can envision is possible. In the old days, “I'd like to set a scene in the Taj Mahal.” “Well, how are we going to do that? We can't…" “I don't know. Well, let's not do it,” you know. Or “I'd like to set a scene in the future, in outer space.” “Well, what's that? Well, how are we going to do it?” “Well, we'll build a set, and a spaceship, and it always looked funky.” Then today, anything that a Director can imagine can be done, effectively. Like the chase in MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE one, where you have Tom Cruise getting on top of a train, having a fight with this guy, and the English countryside is going by in the background, and then they go into a tunnel and they're fighting on top of the train in the tunnel and then a helicopter comes into the tunnel on top of them and Cruise escapes by hanging on to the roll bars and jumping up, and it's completely effective. And there's no train, no English countryside, no helicopter, they're in an empty stage, you know, just mimicking all the action and it's put in later. Or like your film [GOLDA’S BALCONY] about Golda [Golda Meir], where there's, it was shot in an empty room, with a green screen and you decided later how you want the background to look. What backgrounds, realistic, impressionistic. A Director today has a plethora of riches laid out in front of him or her and that wasn't the case when I started. Is that an improvement? Yes it is, because films are about bringing dreams into life, making dreams come true, because a film is like a dream, and when it's most effective it rings true like the most effective dreams or nightmares. And now you can do that, you can achieve effects that were not possible and just simple backgrounds that you could never film before, effectively, you now can film them so that they appear to the audience to be totally real.

INT: So the best part of being a Director is being able to…?

WF: Conjure up the world of your dreams and visions, without any limitations. [INT: Not a bad life.] Well, you know, it beats punching into an office from nine to five. You know, I've always said that, no matter what the problems of directing are, it beats punching the clock, 'cause you do live another kind of a lifestyle, it's not all Gucci shoes and autographs, you know. But I got into this business really for very frivolous reasons. You know, I thought it was a good lifestyle choice, I never knew if I could do it or not when I did it. I had no idea whether I could do it or not, because as I say, I had no training in it, except having seen movies. But that it turns out is the best training for making them. [INT: And now everybody gets to see yours, so that they can train as well as you have.] You don't have to say that. Don't bullshit me Jeremy, let's not end this thing on a note of shit. [INT: I haven’t spent a, you know, a lot of time, my time, watching these films and saying how fabulous they are and what I can learn from them, because it's true.] That's too bad. You're very kind, well, but you go on and the thing is we all learn from each other. I never see a film, but what I pickup something, even if I don't like the whole film. I'll pickup something. [INT: Yeah, maybe an Actor, maybe a moment, maybe a light, maybe a way of shooting that moment.] Yeah, but directing is a great life, so let's not tell too many people about it. It's a--let's keep it a well-kept secret. If everybody knew what a great lifestyle choice it was, they'd all be out here. [INT: And then they'd all have their stuff on YouTube, which they do.] They basically do. [INT: Everybody is a Director now.] In the future, I don't know if people doing this work will be called Directors, I think they might be called computer artists. [INT: Maybe.] Because I think ultimately that's where it's going. [INT: Or image maker.] Yeah, not simply Actors against backgrounds, or creating other worlds, but creating the whole world on a computer. [INT: That's one of the reasons why when I started I loved animation so much, because those are people who are creating whole worlds.] And THE SIMPSONS don't get mad and go off to their trailer right? They don't leave the set in a snit and go to their trailer and they don't get a piece of the profits. [INT: That's true, they still talk back.] Donald Duck, all those years, and Mickey Mouse, never got a piece of Disney's action. And they made the name Disney what it is today. What is it today? [INT: It's still pretty big, isn't it?] But the guys who made it are Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse, they never got to sue back, I don't even know if they ever gave Donald Duck anything to eat.